Wednesday, July 16, 2025

You wanna know about free will? No? Well, too bad I guess.

 Here's a good mainstream take. You can watch him define the terms, then stop.
 https://www.youtube.com/embed/C7YSy-Mr-d8

 Turns out both determinism and free will is impossible. Maybe that deserves a bang. Impossible!

 To have free will, determinism must be true. For you to determine your actions, determinism must be true. If determinism was false, your will would have no ability to affect the future.
 The properties that make up [you] have to have specific effects based on the youness of the [you]. Just like the mass of a billiard ball determines the transfer of momentum.

 But wait, there's more. Later he gets into, "imagine a computer with the initial state of the universe programmed into it." Haha, lol. Logically impossible. The universe can't compute itself due to computational overhead. The computer has to be bigger than the universe, which is impossible by definition. Existence can't be bigger than Existence, that's not how logic works. That's a divide-by-zero level howler.

 The future is completely determinate but completely indeterminable. At a cosmic level, the future is unknowable, and the only exception is going to the future and looking at it. Using a space analogy, telescopes don't exist at the cosmic level. You have to personally walk over there and see with your own eyes. Determinism can't be meaningfully true if the future is indeterminable.

 But wait, that's not all.
 He claims free will vs. determinism has all sorts of implications. Haha! Nope! Doesn't have a single implication! None! Zip!
 These sentences get bangs. Perhaps, again, the earlier one deserves a bang too.

 To be precise, every implication of determinism is exactly identical to the implications of free will. Technically known as libertarianism.

 If someone commits a crime of his own free will, he should go to jail. (Or rather get executed, but same diff.)
 If someone commits a crime because it was determined by the universe, he should to to jail. (Get executed.)

 If he freely chose, he needs to be physically prevented from freely choosing the same thing again. Nobody deserves to have to live around him.
 If it was determined by implacable fate, he needs to be physically prevented from being compelled to do it again. Nobody deserves to have to live around him.

 If it quacks like a duck, it is a duck. Libertarianism is identical to determinism.
 If that makes no sense, it's because neither determinism nor libertarianism make any sense.

 You can't be free to be somebody else. You are you, not someone else. You will make your choices, not someone else's choices, in the same way a carrot is not an ocean liner.
 You can't be predicted. The only way for an observer to find out what you're going to do is to watch you do it. Determinism implies libertarianism.

 There is a bit of a mystery in that there are some exceptions. There are things which are, in practice, predictable. Very curious. Nobody can explain.

 I think the libertarianism vs. determinism debate is a deliberate distraction. A prospiracy. Nobody planned it. It was such an obvious move it doesn't need planning, but it is intentionally, consciously maintained.
 Despite everything, some things are predictable. Rather a lot of things in fact. Explaining how has a very high chance of being extremely powerful.
 And embarrassing. And they don't want you to have power.

 Sadly I already have the power and have no motivation to go and explain it verbally. [Lunar path only] is sufficient.



 Mortals have instincts about free will. Qualitative intuitions. These are largely about physical chains, and applying them to cosmic ontology is misuse.
 The fundamental is that you can tell when what you call your [free will] is hitting interference. The turbulence feels like something, and your resulting impulses are adaptive ways of clearing the interference. If something can vary like this, it obviously can't be any kind of cosmic law. (You should recognize [cosmic law] as a redundant phrase. I just said [some kind of ordered order], but one of the words was greek, while another, latin.)

 "Am I, the contingent entity [me/you/self], part of the causal chain? Is the contingent outcome contigent on my internal psychic events? If so, I am [free]. If not, I am not." This is a scalar. You can be more free or less free.
 You can't be more deterministic or less libertarian, that's a binary. Assuming they're even coherent enough to be a binary.

 If believing in determinism makes you feel constrained, you're delusional, and you're about to direct an adaptive response at something that cannot respond to you or adapt. (Do you like repeating words without equivocating? I like it. Because english is crud.) 



 P.S. [Living] is not a real property of physical objects. A physical cat and a physical rock are not qualitatively different. You can if you want define a category and project it onto them if you want. I believe I have a post about handles and definitions somewhere...

https://alrenous.blogspot.com/2021/12/definitions-examples-religion-ravens.html
https://alrenous.blogspot.com/2022/01/definitions-examples-bowls.html

 You can define life as anything that has a definable goal which it will attempt to secure. Typically it goes recursive. Living things have a goal of staying alive, on account of the fact that anything that doesn't try to stay alive lost the capacity to strategically direct energy long before we were around to see them.

 Alternatively you can define [living] as referring to consciousness, which is not physical. However, this has the consequence of labelling you dead when you're asleep.

12 comments:

rezzealaux said...

> To have free will, determinism must be true. For you to determine your actions, determinism must be true. If determinism was false, your will would have no ability to affect the future.
:OOOOOOOOOO

Alrenous said...

The question: am I a genius or is everyone else who thought about this abominably incompetent. Like, were they even trying.

rezzealaux said...

i don't think anyone who thinks about this thinks about it beyond "dad is right" and "fuck you dad".

Anonymous said...

von Mises and Hoppe talk this

Alrenous said...

you want me to believe that you believe that mises and hoppe talk about this
I indeed believe that you want me to believe that you believe it.

Krakowiak said...

I think I might have founded a single implication of free will vs determinism. It is the ability to be undefeatably unpredictable if one so chooses. What I mean is, if an intelligence vastly greater than human was playing a game with a human where the Human tries to elude prediction of its behaviour while given a stipend to not have to predictably go to work, and the superior intelligence writes Daily notes prediction what the Human will do, was given the humans genetic code and an ability to interview everybody known to the human as well as a large amount of knowledge about human societies and behavioral genetics, should be able to get predictions better than chance and improving over time. Unless free will is True, in which case the Human wins and can not be predicted aparat from not doing things he can't physically do, meaning no prediction of actual choices and the superintelligence can never improve beyond random unintelligent person off the Street even if given the dna of the whole human specie and the humans whole lifespan.

Krakowiak said...

To be clear I don't mean that perfect prediction is necessary to disprove free will, just better than chance as measured by an unintelligent person. However predicting behaviour based on the experiment subjects persistent goals (other than to elude prediction) i think shouldn't count because given goals and knowledge and circumstances constraints the same cours of Action emerges over and over again, but the same person might be completely unpredictable and therefore win in the scenario from above, in which case their mental events would have to be a truly unsolvable physics problem.

Krakowiak said...

My scenario to differentiate the two cases is unlikely to ever happen, unless in a version where the super human intelligence is replaced by a bunch of smart scientists trying to predicted what somebody will do today, so its not a good test. While the scientists predicting a man paid to evade prediction better than chance would still disprove free will, The opposite outcome would not disprove determinism, which I am not sure is possible, since some one could argue that the previous state exactly determines the next without scientists being able to make a prediction better than some random uninformed dude. Although at some point if the scientists know all of the many test subjects past behaviour and all of their DNA and still can not over the years make the smallest detectable improvement in predictions of what any of them will do today, than that might at least count as Evidence for some kind of not physically predetermined to produce specific outcome mechanism of translating goals (such as evading prediction) into choices from amongst one of the physically possible Actions.

Krakowiak said...

Come to think about it, if free will is to be understood as something different than determinism or probability, or as the ability to make choices in accordance with ones values, than people making predictable errors is already enough to prove that they don't have free will. What I mean is if one guy makes an error and fails to succeed at reaching his goal despite he could have and there wasn't an information shortage, such that it was possible to figure out in available time what to do, and a second one succeeds, than the first one doesn't have free will, either because of being predetermined by whatever brain glitch he had, to fail at the task he set himself, or because of being unable to eliminate the risk of error despite wanting to know what to do and if the manner of failure shows any degree of predictability, that also means that either determinism or probability obtains, since the two causal mechanics cover the whole space of ocurrences predictable regardless of anybodys intent being for the ocurrences to happen, given that if you neither can know for certain what is about to happen (determinism) , nor can determine the probability distribution of possible options (for example 0,5 options A, 0,3 options B, and 0,2 options C) in advance (probability) , than you neither don't know, or somebody who can decide what will happen have told you his otherwise completely unpredictable intent. So basically at least a supermajority of humans has no free will, and a creature with free will would never make any errors, or at least predictable ones, depending on whether the Definition emphasizes succesfull intent or not being predetermined to a particular probability distribution of your decisions by forces outside of ones Control. Also fuck me for not realizing all of this before the previous comments.

Alrenous said...

As a practical matter I've met all of two people who aren't predictable, and it's not because they're chaotic, it's because everyone else plays with their hand face-up.
Also by 'met' I don't mean in person. I know them over the internet.

Krakowiak said...

Wow. Also I Wonder who these people are.

Alrenous said...

it's scott adams and stephan molyneux